Do any of you charcoal burning bubbas have any experience with this BP substitute ? I've read that it is much less corrosive than either Pyrodex or the real thing, with 777 having sugar in the recipe.
I have used Pyrodex and Triple 7. I use only Triple 7 now. Pyrodex is still highly corrosive whereas I have found Triple 7 not to be so much so. In fact, I have half a dozen smoke poles, so shot these quite allot. Triple 7 is more powerful and less corrosive by far. Nowadays where I hunt they allow single shot rifles 35 caliber and above with exposed hammers of a design prior to 1900, so my smoke poles are on the wall. One thing I can say. NEVER use oil on a black powder rifle. Period.
Michael, what is the issue with protecting the outside and bore against corrosion with a thin film of oil?
The 777 interests me because while period muzzleloader rifles do not need a firearms licence here the local authorities live in fear of black powder - particularly since the government came under control of the Amazulu nation ten years ago. 16 December 1838 is the cause of this. So black powder and anything that sets off a muzzle loader is acutely regulated.
Maybe if 777 has endearing properties and substances (not fattening otherwise Bloomberg will ban it in the US), an appeal can be made to our parliamentary standing committee on the South African Police Service to deregulate it.
Oil tends to migrate. It is a NO DO!!! It can render your powder useless and does not protect against BP corrosion anyway. There are non oil based corrosion protectors such as "Bore Butter" as example can preserve the bore and the other metal. Better than oil. Since we are talking smoke poles, I clean them with soap and warm water. The bores I clean with an equal mixture of Alcohol, Murphy's Oil Soap (no oil) and Hydrogen Peroxide. I learned this from the Confederate Reinactors, since it is how they clean those old Confederate smoke poles.
I could market the stuff if I had a mind to.
777 is good stuff. You can get it in pellets too. I use a combination of 30g loose powder as an igniter, and two 50g pellets in the magnum. In the non magnums I use 90-110g of 777 FFG loose powder, depending on the gun.
I also slosh my Kentucky muzzleloaders in Colorado with hot soapy water, then a mix of Ballistol and hot water, rinse with boiling hot water, leave to heat-dry and then a thin film of Ballistol inside and outside. Pristine barrels and bores.
Hydrogen Peroxide is a great eater of anything organic, never thought of using that. Wonder what should be the proper % by volume strength for this application. At full strength is is a rocket fuel and will ignite the greenest leaves and green grass. One gallon of 30% into a 12,000 gallon swimming pool is a powerful algae killer.
As I noted, equal amounts of each by volume, for a total of whatever you need. Many hunters I know use this mix as well, swear by it even.
Sorry to say, 777 smokes. Not as much as black powder or Pyrodex however. I replace mine every season, and it makes great fertilizer, heh. I do this just because. The pellets I keep fore several seasons.
These days that whole hobby is on hold. We are using antique smokeless rifles now, just because they want cleaner kills. Smoke poles screw up sometimes. We keep them loaded without a cap in camp, but we can never bring them inside to warmth. Condensation even, will kill the powder. Then there is rain, and oh did you press the powder exactly to the mark on your ramrod? If not, that bullet is going somewhere else!
I have four smoke poles in the safe or on the wall, now safe queens.
When I first began messing around with muzzle loaders I wondered how in the heck could the frontier's men function if they had to clean their rifles every few shots. It was when I discovered the effects of petroleum products on black powder and substitutes. Eliminating the petroleum products I had cleaned my muzzle loader with took me a long time. Eventually, however, it worked and I have shot as many as 60 rounds at a time with black powder with no cleaning. I use black powder, no substitutes.
The story behind going to black powder is this. In 1982 I was given a kit to assemble a Thompson/Center Hawkins muzzle loader. This kit was extremely basic. I had to draw file the flats of the barrel. The stock was inlet somewhat for the barrel, etc. Some things, such as the check piece was nothing more than a groove in the stock to indicate its location. When I eventually completed the thing 7 years later, it was and is a beautiful rifle. However, this gun would shoot terribly. I was using Pyrodex at the time. It was not uncommon for a three shot group at 50 yards to be measured in feet as opposed to inches. I called Thompson/Center and explained the situation to their muzzleloader expert. He said first of all that I was one of the few people that had ever completed the kit (they quit selling them). He also said that they would gladly correct any problems with the gun, but to try black powder instead of a substitute. He said that the guns were engineered to shoot black powder and Thompson Maxi-Balls. Most would shoot most anything, but occasionally one would be picky. I thought he was giving me the run-a-round, but bought a can of black powder, anyway. Figured I did not have much to loose. My first five shots with black powder and maxi-balls appeared from the 50 yard bench to be terrible. The first shot hit the target. The next four shots showed no additional holes. Upon examining the target, however, I found that the single hole had four very small partial moon cuts. The only other thing I found this gun would shoot well was round balls with the appropriate size of patch, again using black powder. I seldom shoot any kind of muzzle loader now, but I do keep a supply of black powder on hand. I had just as soon clean up black powder as anything else. As for 777, it tends to leave a stubborn ring near the chamber that is difficult to remove and can impede fast reloading. Again, I stick to black powder.
I have never witnessed any such stubborn ring with 777, or I guess the concoction I mentioned removes it with no problem whatever. Black powder is so corrosive that even after you clean the gun you need to do it periodically all year long. The rifle I started with was a Thompson Hawkin that eventually succumbed to my not knowing the above and using Pyrodex after black powder and only a single cleaning after use. All of my subsequent rifles are still in perfect condition and are spotless inside and out - using 777 and the cleaning method I learned from my Confederate re-enactor friends.
Are you using pellets or loose powder? I was using the pellets. The ring I encountered appeared to be mostly sulfur burnt to a hard crust. Made it almost impossible to get a third or sometime even a second shot off without scrubbing the barrel. I have read numerous complaints regarding this ring. Again it may be limited to the pellets. Pellets are all I good get at the time.
As far as black powder goes I have never had a corrosion issue. I used soap and boiling water for clean up. It was quite the ordeal to boil the barrel and clean all of the parts. But, I have never had lingering corrosion issues.
I use loose powder and sometimes pellets on top of 30g of loose powder as a primer for the pellets getting a better ignition. Perhaps my methods preclude that ring since I have never even seen it at all. Plus, that formula I mentioned earlier works BETTER than any product on the market.
.png)
I have used Pyrodex and Triple 7. I use only Triple 7 now. Pyrodex is still highly corrosive whereas I have found Triple 7 not to be so much so. In fact, I have half a dozen smoke poles, so shot these quite allot. Triple 7 is more powerful and less corrosive by far. Nowadays where I hunt they allow single shot rifles 35 caliber and above with exposed hammers of a design prior to 1900, so my smoke poles are on the wall. One thing I can say. NEVER use oil on a black powder rifle. Period.
Michael, what is the issue with protecting the outside and bore against corrosion with a thin film of oil?
The 777 interests me because while period muzzleloader rifles do not need a firearms licence here the local authorities live in fear of black powder - particularly since the government came under control of the Amazulu nation ten years ago. 16 December 1838 is the cause of this. So black powder and anything that sets off a muzzle loader is acutely regulated.
Maybe if 777 has endearing properties and substances (not fattening otherwise Bloomberg will ban it in the US), an appeal can be made to our parliamentary standing committee on the South African Police Service to deregulate it.
Oil tends to migrate. It is a NO DO!!! It can render your powder useless and does not protect against BP corrosion anyway. There are non oil based corrosion protectors such as "Bore Butter" as example can preserve the bore and the other metal. Better than oil. Since we are talking smoke poles, I clean them with soap and warm water. The bores I clean with an equal mixture of Alcohol, Murphy's Oil Soap (no oil) and Hydrogen Peroxide. I learned this from the Confederate Reinactors, since it is how they clean those old Confederate smoke poles.
I could market the stuff if I had a mind to.
777 is good stuff. You can get it in pellets too. I use a combination of 30g loose powder as an igniter, and two 50g pellets in the magnum. In the non magnums I use 90-110g of 777 FFG loose powder, depending on the gun.
Oh that's off the shelf Hydrogen Peroxide, NOT the industrial stuff.
I also slosh my Kentucky muzzleloaders in Colorado with hot soapy water, then a mix of Ballistol and hot water, rinse with boiling hot water, leave to heat-dry and then a thin film of Ballistol inside and outside. Pristine barrels and bores.
Hydrogen Peroxide is a great eater of anything organic, never thought of using that. Wonder what should be the proper % by volume strength for this application. At full strength is is a rocket fuel and will ignite the greenest leaves and green grass. One gallon of 30% into a 12,000 gallon swimming pool is a powerful algae killer.
Is the 777 smokey?
As I noted, equal amounts of each by volume, for a total of whatever you need. Many hunters I know use this mix as well, swear by it even.
Sorry to say, 777 smokes. Not as much as black powder or Pyrodex however. I replace mine every season, and it makes great fertilizer, heh. I do this just because. The pellets I keep fore several seasons.
These days that whole hobby is on hold. We are using antique smokeless rifles now, just because they want cleaner kills. Smoke poles screw up sometimes. We keep them loaded without a cap in camp, but we can never bring them inside to warmth. Condensation even, will kill the powder. Then there is rain, and oh did you press the powder exactly to the mark on your ramrod? If not, that bullet is going somewhere else!
I have four smoke poles in the safe or on the wall, now safe queens.
When I first began messing around with muzzle loaders I wondered how in the heck could the frontier's men function if they had to clean their rifles every few shots. It was when I discovered the effects of petroleum products on black powder and substitutes. Eliminating the petroleum products I had cleaned my muzzle loader with took me a long time. Eventually, however, it worked and I have shot as many as 60 rounds at a time with black powder with no cleaning. I use black powder, no substitutes.
The story behind going to black powder is this. In 1982 I was given a kit to assemble a Thompson/Center Hawkins muzzle loader. This kit was extremely basic. I had to draw file the flats of the barrel. The stock was inlet somewhat for the barrel, etc. Some things, such as the check piece was nothing more than a groove in the stock to indicate its location. When I eventually completed the thing 7 years later, it was and is a beautiful rifle. However, this gun would shoot terribly. I was using Pyrodex at the time. It was not uncommon for a three shot group at 50 yards to be measured in feet as opposed to inches. I called Thompson/Center and explained the situation to their muzzleloader expert. He said first of all that I was one of the few people that had ever completed the kit (they quit selling them). He also said that they would gladly correct any problems with the gun, but to try black powder instead of a substitute. He said that the guns were engineered to shoot black powder and Thompson Maxi-Balls. Most would shoot most anything, but occasionally one would be picky. I thought he was giving me the run-a-round, but bought a can of black powder, anyway. Figured I did not have much to loose. My first five shots with black powder and maxi-balls appeared from the 50 yard bench to be terrible. The first shot hit the target. The next four shots showed no additional holes. Upon examining the target, however, I found that the single hole had four very small partial moon cuts. The only other thing I found this gun would shoot well was round balls with the appropriate size of patch, again using black powder. I seldom shoot any kind of muzzle loader now, but I do keep a supply of black powder on hand. I had just as soon clean up black powder as anything else. As for 777, it tends to leave a stubborn ring near the chamber that is difficult to remove and can impede fast reloading. Again, I stick to black powder.
I have never witnessed any such stubborn ring with 777, or I guess the concoction I mentioned removes it with no problem whatever. Black powder is so corrosive that even after you clean the gun you need to do it periodically all year long. The rifle I started with was a Thompson Hawkin that eventually succumbed to my not knowing the above and using Pyrodex after black powder and only a single cleaning after use. All of my subsequent rifles are still in perfect condition and are spotless inside and out - using 777 and the cleaning method I learned from my Confederate re-enactor friends.
Are you using pellets or loose powder? I was using the pellets. The ring I encountered appeared to be mostly sulfur burnt to a hard crust. Made it almost impossible to get a third or sometime even a second shot off without scrubbing the barrel. I have read numerous complaints regarding this ring. Again it may be limited to the pellets. Pellets are all I good get at the time.
As far as black powder goes I have never had a corrosion issue. I used soap and boiling water for clean up. It was quite the ordeal to boil the barrel and clean all of the parts. But, I have never had lingering corrosion issues.
I use loose powder and sometimes pellets on top of 30g of loose powder as a primer for the pellets getting a better ignition. Perhaps my methods preclude that ring since I have never even seen it at all. Plus, that formula I mentioned earlier works BETTER than any product on the market.
I will certainly try that formula the next time I pull my muzzle loader out. Thanks for the tip.