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New member Erich sent me an email which I am copying here. It is about hydrostatic shock but the original author refers to certain parts of an animal's anatomy, and because this chat forum is exactly about bullet behaviour on an animal I decided to have the discussion here. Member fnhunter13 who hunted blesbok, black wildebeest, kudu and blue wildebeest with me during July 2017 may wish to add his observations.
Erich wrote: I've been reading through your myths and had a question regarding hydrostatic shock. The gentleman at basllisticstudies.com has an article called "Effective Game Killing". I'll try to paste the link here: https://www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowledgebase/Effective+Game+Killing.html He states that the "shock" is transmitted to the CNS via the ribs and spine. The actual effectiveness of this transfer is proportional to the proximity of a rib or other structure capable of transmitting the shockwave. I'm not enough of a biologist to concur or not but he claims that this shock causes the brain to temporarily shut down and the animal goes into a coma. Assuming a proper cartridge and shot placement, the animal dies from the mechanical wounds (heart, lung, etc...)prior to regaining consciousness. He states that this coma is what produces an immediate stop on game. The example is a deer with the classic double lung shot. He may run 100 yards or he may drop right there. This author says the ones who drop right there are due to this shock effect on the brain. He has some qualifiers with caliber, velocity and such. I'd be curious to get your take on this. Please bear in mind I've only presented a basic summary.
I read your blog entry on the giraffe culling operation and people using bows. I can't quite understand the desire to use bows on large game like that. I understand the challenge but is it ethical to the animal? I'm curious what the original inhabitants did prior to firearms. Everyone in the southeastern US is taught to shoot a deer just behind or in the front shoulder about 1/3 up from the bottom. This gives the double lung shot. Ideally the round will exit the animal after passing broadside through both lungs. If you take out the heart, that's a bonus. I'm curious to get your opinion on this. In the giraffe article, you seemed to feel that a heart shot is really the most ethical shot (assuming the CNS is not an option) in that it kills more quickly than any other shot. What's your opinion on the double lung shot?
Does it vary depending on the size or type of game? I look forward to hearing back. I've got a question too on African hunting preparation but it will have to wait till I get back from the range today. I might post that on the forum at your website.
o Erich's questions are always interesting as clearly he is an objective reviewer of presented information - a man driven by logic. Let me go to the giraffe question first: The culling does not take place by cross bow or compound bows but typically we use .375 H&H or 9.3x62. Giraffe has unique challenges which I shall come to shortly. The landowner needed to remove 8 bulls for the reasons explained in the blog here:
PH friend André and I quoted to do the job and we arrived at the property in the pristine savannah of the Limpopo province by noon on a Friday, hoping to maybe get one of the bulls down by that evening. One hour before sunset we had only located some cows and young bulls and decided to stop hunting.
Giraffe have very good meat and the butchery owner who was going to buy the meat arrived and asked if his 17 years old son could shoot one of the 8 bulls under our guidance the following morning. Then André received a phone call from another outfitter who said he heard about our culling operation and that he had five US clients who wanted to shoot giraffe and would André and I accept to guide them to hunt a bull each. So the cull became a hunt. We arranged for the Americans to come by noon the following morning and at first light we set out with the butcher and his son.
We found a big bull by about 10 a.m. and the 17 year old kid who had never fired a .375 H&H before used André's beautiful lightweight SAKO Forrester and put the 340 gr Rhino solid shank bullet within 1/2 an inch from where André had directed him. We were still skinning when the six (not five) Americans arrived - a young couple and an older friend from the US Embassy in Pretoria and three hunters from The New York area - the latter three armed with triplets of brand new .300 Weatherbys and 150 gr Nosler Ballistic Tip bullets. 3,300 ft/sec I was told.
At 50 yards the kinetic energy in that fragile bullet will destroy the bullet the very moment it slows down and KE is released as heat into its already 400 degrees F. It will not even penetrate the 1"+ skin of a giraffe but break up before meeting meat and the densest bone on the planet, then the waiting 3/4" thick rib - cut the heart, break through another rib, break the opposite humerus and stop against the skin. The recoil on the rifles was heavy and none of the three (let's say rifles!) could group into even 6" at 50 yards off a rest, shot by their owners.
I explained my issue with the bullets and André offered his .375 to the three hunters for the cost of a packet of ammunition. We wanted a sure shot into 4" at 50 yards from shooting sticks. The general feeling was that I insulted them by not accepting the Weatherbys and they left in disgust. There are really very valid historical reasons why I decline to let certain brands and style of bullets be used on hunts - whether it is a local novice hunter or a visitor.
The Embassy marines then told us they wanted to hunt their giraffe with a crossbow and a 65 lb compound bow. André is an accomplished bow hunter and said 65 lbs is too weak and asked about the arrow weight which was 550gr without the three bladed heads. He declined and said minimum 900 gr arrows and a two-bladed broadhead of only one design. The blog relates the deal he struck with the bow hunter and the outcome.
We looked at the little bolts from the crossbow the girl wanted to use and had huge reservations. André set her up with a 4" target at 55 yards and asked her to hit it with the first shot. She was calm and confident, smiled, and from prone she hit it centre centre. Grudgingly we accepted and she did a perfect shot as directed on her giraffe into the hollow of the throat the following morning. It went 200 yards before dying. So - I still shall not allow any type of bow hunting on giraffe and Cape buffalo.
Then: my response to Erich's other question: Lung shots simply do not kill Africa animals. Period.
On hydrostatic shock and the opinions in the link - I shall work through that and dedicate a new thread to it. I have never observed the phenomena as proposed in the link and as summarised by Erich; I can only relate 55 years of big game hunting:
A bullet behind the shoulder as described does nothing but cause possibly a week suffering and slow death for kudu, wildebeest, gemsbok and every other of the 12 elk size species in South Africa. Behind the shoulder there is nothing of importance - there is no lung or large blood vessels. The diaphragm may be perforated assisting in a quicker (by one day) but exceedingly suffering death. If it is a Cape buffalo he will kill maybe the hunter during follow-up, and everybody else he encounters in the week he lives.
A bullet hole through two ribs - if it misses the heart - does not even cause the animal to miss one step in its flight, let alone fall down from neurological shock.
The object of an ethical kill is not to cause the animal to become dizzy and then die from blood loss while thankfully being .under an anesthetic. The object is to knock it down and kill it hopefully in its tracks - and do so with the least amount of physical trauma to the meat and related blood vessels.
For the animal to fall down the central nervous system must be permanently stopped from functioning and not simply a neurological slowdown while it dies from internal blood loss - thus a brain shot, or the rapid and complete physical removal of blood (oxygen) from the brain is required. The atrium (top chambers) of the heart must be flared open to prevent blood to the brain so we aim for the top of the heart - and not just for the heart. Even the little springbok may run for 300 yards with the bottom of the heart shot away.
Member frhunter13 knows how a blue wildebeest and even blesbok will just soak up bullets unless the heart is stopped.
Alec, just a quick response. I am about to buy a CZ 550 in 9,3x62. I have had .375 H&Hs since long ago, also hunt with a .416 Rigby in Mozambique but have observed many times that the 9,3x62 is only sligtly behind the .375 H&H in penetration on Cape buffalo with same design bullets. I now understand why it is the minimum cartridge / calibre legally allowed for Cape buffalo and elephant. That position appeals to me - killing everything the same way as the visitors with their .458 Lotts do with a great deal of understated ability - which fits in with our national character. Shot a CZ 550 just the other day with 286 gr Peregrine VRG-3 bullets. Very, very pleasing rifle.
Your choice of 270 gr Hornady Interlock is perfect - in fact part of the deal I am doing is 70 of those. With local propellant that bullet has been tested by Somchem from a 24" barrel at 2 600 ft/sec. That gives a good trajectory out to 250 meter.
Talk to you later.
Andries
Thank you Andrias. With the hype about just how tough and tenacious our large deer are, I now have a new Tikka Light in 9.3x62. Until now I carried Tikka Light .308 or Varmint in .270. At this point I`m sighting the 9.3 in on the bench with 286gn Interlock & 270gn Hot Cor, both on bottom loads. These, despite sitting as upright as I can (holding the forend), is providing some amusement as it kicks the shit out of me. Hopefully when on venison I will forget this and concentrate.
I received the following email on the site's personal mail system from our new member in Australia after my invitation for him to introduce himself and tell us where his interests are. Again, welcome to the website and forums, Alec!
"ANYTHING about hunting or photo safaris Name: Alec Whitelaw Bucket list to hunt: The country, magnificent. Antelope etc. Big five no chance, balls first money second. One day !
Message:
Hi, In Australia there are large Sambar & Red deer, the guiding advice is to go for high heart-lung area, primarily the lungs. The theory is with a heart shot the animal will cover 100-200mtrs before falling, hidden in grass & bush.
You however strongly push for a heart shot, why is there this difference ?
Your talk on calibres is a breath of fresh non BS air".
So here is my response, Alec:
"... the guiding advice is to go for high heart-lung area, primarily the lungs".
Look at the sketches above that depict the heart and lung anatomy in all S.A. antelope. Please accept my advice that ALL ungulates have exactly the same arrangement. Deer (including elk) in at least North America have their hearts in exactly the same place, protected by the breast bone at the bottom and by the humerus bones on the sides. Furthermore the heart in all ungulates is completely enveloped on the sides by the two side lobes of the lungs.
Deer have larger lung capacity due to the higher elevations they live at, so the lung lobes immediately to the rear of the heart extend further backwards than in Africa antelope. A shot behind the leg on deer will surely miss the heart but still perforate the lung lobes. Due to their higher dependency on a supercharged oxygen supply any decrease in lung function affect deer sooner - and also to a greater extent than any Africa animal. With only a lung shot as described here my experience in Colorado is that they will run for 200 yards and lie down to rest, but not die - easily for an hour.
2. "The theory is with a heart shot the animal will cover 100-200mtrs before falling, hidden in grass & bush".
I fail to understand the theory. In the shot mentioned above only the lungs are perforated. In a shot aimed at the top chambers of the heart, the heart is cut open as well as both lobes of the lungs - a much more severe physical trauma.
Most certainly in my experience with Africa antelope and American deer there is no animal that can go more than 30 yards with the heart top chambers flared open by a bullet, and of course the lungs have been perforated by the same shot placement at the same time.
In the case of Cape buffalo which have massive over-supply of blood at very high diastolic pressure relative to their body mass this allows them to run for 50-60 meter with heart top chambers cut open. If there was adrenaline before the shot (if he had seen you) this can be maybe 20-30 meter more. I have seen a pregnant little springbok ewe run 200 yards with the heart perforated by a .308W. That is simply the female of any species's tenacity to life to save her unborn.
In Africa antelope there is NOTHING vital behind the leg as the lung curves upward from the heart. A shot there in dense vegetation and you have a great possibility of losing the animal, and it will live for a week.
Cape buffalo with a lung shot with the .458 Win Mag where the heart was missed and the bullet only entered one lobe and stopped there was found in perfect condition and killed by another hunter. There was not even an entry scar so old was the wounding. Only when the carcass was quartered was the old bullet found, completely covered by scar tissue in the lobe.
A heart-lung shot is exactly that: low into the shoulder bulge after having moved the crosshairs up the front edge of the leg when perfectly side on.
Two months ago my elder son and friends hunted black wildebeest with their .308W BRNO and Musgrave rifles in the Karoo open plains, Average distance was 200 meter and all shots except one were into the heart top chambers and no animal went further than 20 yards. He pulled one shot high on a black wildebeest and missed the heart by three inches, into the lungs above the heart. The animal would have gone a few kilometer but the PH did a perfect off-hand running shot through the heart at 220 meter with his 30-06 and she went down right there.
So, yes - with clients I not only insist on a heart shot but instruct it as a non negotiable. In 55 years of hunting big game in Africa I have yet to see a second shot on any animal that was heart shot, and have not seen anything go beyond 30 yards except a Cape buffalo cow I shot in Mozambique with the .416 Rigby.
Indeed Erich. I was surprised to see in Colorado that a mule deer died relatively quickly from a "behind the shoulder" shot whereas the same shot will let you lose your kudu, bushbuck or wildebeest and possibly not find it in dense vegetation.
Look at these sketches again:
There is no lung behind the line of the front leg so the sights go up the front line of the leg until the hunter sees the bulging muscle where the elbow joint is and the shoulder joint upwards and in front of it. A tad above the bulge of the muscle is the top chambers of the heart. That is you best shot if the animal had not seen you and did not have an adrenaline rush. Once that has happened the bullet must break both the humerus bones (between the two joints to anchor him. The bottom chambers in all animals do not cause the rapid loss of blood and oxygen to the central nervous system as do the top chambers and arteries but bone fragments will still get to the top. A shot into the lung above the heart will let him live for a week.
The springbok is a small animal but females have a stronger tenacity to life than males. Same shot as the buffalo.
Look at the lung shape of an oryx. A shot high and too far to the rear will also let him live for a day. Oryx must be treated as a dangerous animal; even though he will not charge you outright when wounded he will wait behind a bush and horn the unwary, being a very aggressive animal - same as bushbuck. Sight up the centre of the leg and shoot into the muscle bulge.
Same shot with the kudu - "behind the shoulder" and high will let you lose it as they are bush dwellers. Best shot with kudu to get the heart upper chambers is tight behind the humerus-scapula joint. In real terms that joint in fact IS the "shoulder". They are not aggressive at all.
Look at elk having much more lung than similar size Africa animals like oryx and kudu - and certainly elk has some lung "behind the shoulder". Living at 7,000 -10,000 ft. elevation elk and mule deer need turbo-charged oxygen so are very dependent on their big lungs. Any degradation of oxygen supply makes them lie down quickly.
Thanks for the informed response. I read somewhere else (probably another thread here) that the African animals' lungs are of a different shape and really don't extend much past the shoulder bones so the classic whitetail approach wouldn't do much damage. That said, I believe that my approach to whitetail from now on will be to actually hit the shoulder and take the heart shot.